25 - Ollie's Voice Pt. 1

Join us on a beautiful journey into Ollie's Perspective.  This will be a 4 part series where we will get just a glimpse into the life of Ollie and how growing up in Utah and certain examples of toxic masculinity shaped her.

WARNING: 

This episode does mention suicide.  If you or someone you know are struggling with being here please get in touch with 988.  You are uniquely you and important!

Transcript

Kyler: 0:00

Welcome everybody to another episode of the Isler perspective today. We're so very lucky to have one of my friends from middle school and I've known her all throughout high school. We've actually got Ollie, Olivia Gavin. So welcome to the podcast.

Tyler: 0:15

Yeah. Welcome to the podcast.

Ollie: 0:17

Hi guys. This is a very fun thing. I've never been on a podcast before, so this will be interesting.

Kyler: 0:23

Yeah, I know we had, we had spoke about you in one of our last episodes and I just felt very impressed to reach out to you, so I really appreciate you coming onto the podcast. We're so excited to hear your story and your perspective, so let's go ahead and get into this.

Tyler: 0:52

So Oli, Kyler and I, you know, living in Utah as we do, it's a place where we don't get exposed to much diversity. And so when instances pop up where we are, one of the things we mentioned in our previous odd podcasts is. We don't really know how to talk to our children about specifically in this case individuals who are transgender. And so that's kind of our goal today is to get an understanding of you, your journey, what you felt, how other people can help support individuals in their family, if, if they feel that they're, they're trans and then how we can teach it to our children and others of our, our loved ones who. Maybe have a difficult time with it as well. And so that's, our goal is to really be an ally to you and to the LGBTQIA community and just know how to have. These types of conversations. And so we'll turn the time over to you right now, where you can go ahead and start talking about your childhood, or if you want to kind of hit on some of those questions that I answered or asked or mentioned now, you can do that. We can also touch back on those at the end as a recap.

Ollie: 2:04

Sure. Yeah. So one of the things that I, I heard you say at the end of your last episode you, you would, like you just mentioned, you were talking about how to talk about it to your kids. And I feel like the best way to talk about it is kind of the same as you would talk about it with anything else, like a straight or cisgender person, just like treating it like it's normal instead of it being something that is different or abnormal or especially wrong. And obviously, that is obviously, it's something that you want to avoid, but I think just talking about it like it's a normal thing. You know, with like, we, I think, where we're at currently in our society, we've gotten a lot better at it. As far as being more accepting of people. But I feel that because we, we have to point out. You know, like, oh, I know a gay person, or I know a trans person. Instead of it just being, I know a person. And, you know, it, it, through conversation, it comes out that that person is gay or trans. I feel like a more natural approach to talking to people about that subject makes it seem less I don't know how to put it, but less, I guess, different, you know?

Tyler: 3:34

Yeah.

Ollie: 3:34

So like, when it comes to talking to kids, I feel like, obviously, you have to teach them, you know, you can't be completely I guess, I don't know how, how I would say it is, you can't, you can't, Act like it's nothing with a kid. You do have to teach them these lessons. And I, I remember on one, one of the previous episodes Kyler, you were talking about your daughter, and I think you were at a, a coffee shop or something?

Kyler: 4:05

Yes.

Ollie: 4:06

And the lady behind the counter, was it, was it a, I can't remember if it was a trans man or a woman?

Kyler: 4:12

Correct, trans man.

Ollie: 4:13

Okay. So when your daughter was asking questions but definitely an awkward situation in a public setting, especially right in front of that person. Yeah. And I think a very important thing to point out is that I am my own experience. You know, like I, I don't speak for everybody in this community,

Kyler: 4:35

right.

Ollie: 4:36

But I feel like if you, if you just ask, obviously not making a big thing of it, but if you get this person's attention and you just ask them politely, Hey, I don't want to be offensive. What pronouns do you use? You know, I want to make sure that I'm being respectful.

Tyler: 4:58

Yeah, I really feel

Ollie: 4:59

like, for the most part, I think, I really feel like most, most people out there are going to be open about it. I think that there are some people who may be offended by it and honestly, I think most of those people would come from the cisgendered side. You know, like, if a man is being asked, are you a man or a woman? I, I think, from my experience in my 32 years, I think that a cisgendered man would get more offended than a trans or non binary person.

Kyler: 5:32

Yeah.

Ollie: 5:32

Because a trans or non binary person's already kind of going through that, so they're exploring that, and they're more open to talking about it. But yeah, I feel like when your child, or really anybody, uncertain of how someone else identifies then I feel like it's, it's a safe thing to ask in a respectful way. You know, what are your pronouns? I want to make sure that I'm being respectful to you. And who knows, maybe it was a cisgendered person all along and you just move on from it. But it's better than ignoring it because if you ignore it and maybe you're using the wrong pronouns, then now you're just being, to them, you're just being rude.

Kyler: 6:21

Yeah, just callous. Like, like you don't care about themselves. I have this tattoo that I put on my wrist probably about a year ago. It says, know thyself. And it's something that I look at daily. And it's in, it's in Elder Futhark runes. So it's more of like a, an ancient character type language. But it's, it's personal to me just because it, it helps me to understand that each individual person is their own experience and their own journey. And that's what makes them so beautiful and unique. And that was one of the things that I was really excited about having you on the podcast to talk to you is to really dive into your story. Cause I knew we grew up together in Utah and that can be very difficult, especially with the predominant religion in the area. Tell me about how you said you're, you've been on, you've been alive for 32 years. Tell me about kind of your experiences growing up and when you started realizing that you were a woman.

Ollie: 7:18

Okay. Yeah. So. I was born in Provo and grew up mostly in Spanish Fork. So we grew up around let's say probably pretty similar environments although I was not raised LDS. So definitely a few different lessons going on in there. But yeah, so during my younger years like, you know, like five years old or something like that. My mom was married to a very, like, macho man kind of guy. He was very, I would say the correct terminology in today's terms would be he was like the toxic masculinity type. Where everything was a, it was like everything was being graded about your manhood. So basically throughout that entire relationship. Of my mom's marriage with him was, it was like emotionally abusive in the sense that everything that I did was being nitpicked. And, you know, as a, as a 5 to 11 year old kid I was told, you know, I can't play with that because that's a girl's toy. Or, I can't wear that because men can't wear that. I mean, it got all the way down to little things like men are supposed to wear their watches on their left wrist, not their right wrist. And you can't get your ears pierced. And if you do, it can only be the left ear. Cause if it's the right ear, then you're gay.

Kyler: 8:59

Yeah. I do remember that.

Ollie: 9:00

Yeah. Just really, really oddly specific things on how to be a man. And I never, at the time, I guess I didn't know why it was such a big deal. I just remember that I was a kid, and I wanted to have fun, and yet every time I did, I was getting ridiculed because I wasn't being man enough, and so I think that was a really big part in me being transgender and I didn't have the words to describe it when I was 5 to 11 years old and honestly, I don't think that I even I knew that being transgender was a thing that you could do until I was in my, maybe my mid twenties. Yeah. So it was, you know, twenty five plus years of me thinking all of these thoughts in my head are wrong. And So I felt a lot of shame growing up because of that. So I think a lot of those lessons of, you know, like the, be a man kind of things like on the inside, I never agreed with them. I never understood why I had to be this way. And so I kind of grew very resentful of that concept. And so I had a lot of, definitely had a lot of anger issues in grade school when I was sent to the principal's office a lot, like on a regular basis for losing my temperature, my, I'm sorry, my temper. So I think that obviously had a lot to do with what's going on at home. And eventually my mom divorced him. And then I kind of went like, The complete opposite direction from like that short fuse to nothing matters. And,

Tyler: 11:01

Can we pause you there about what age were you at that time?

Ollie: 11:05

I was 11,

Tyler: 11:05

11. Okay.

Kyler: 11:06

And let me ask one more question. How many, did you have any siblings growing up?

Ollie: 11:11

Yeah. So I had a sister who I guess she was my mom's child, but we have different dads. And when my mom was married the first time her husband had a daughter as well.

Kyler: 11:28

Was, were they, was, was your sisters older than you?

Ollie: 11:32

Yeah, they were like two and three years older.

Kyler: 11:35

Okay. And did you have any younger siblings?

Ollie: 11:39

No, I'm the youngest.

Kyler: 11:40

The reason why I asked that is because I had similar experience growing up. My brother is 10 years older than me. And then I had three sisters and I was sandwiched in the middle of all of them. You And so I remember growing up between those ages of five to 11, you know, my brother moved out when he was 18 and. So I was just in a household full of sisters. My dad, he lived in a, he was working in Las Vegas, so he'd go there during the week and come home on the weekend. So for most of my younger years, it was my mom and my three sisters and myself. And I remember multiple times where, you know, My hair would get crimped or I'd be putting a girl's clothing or I would be expected to play with the girl toys because that's what was there. And I never had any issues with it, but I do remember that I was always getting outvoted on going into stores like big five. Or like any of the sporting goods stores, like it would always come down to a vote with my sisters and we would end up in old Navy and Claire's and all the other stores. And so, I mean, I was, I was just always confronted with all of the feminine. And so it was, I think that was kind of one of the reasons, it might be one of the reasons why. I'm in touch with my feminine side as much as I am. Tyler knows me very well and knows that I like to cry a lot. So that's not feminine. I get, I get, I get real emotional. That's human. I know I watch movies and I just cry and my wife just thinks I'm a softy, but I was, I was just curious about that and how it might've affected, especially those formerly years between five and 11 and having someone who's a role model, but is a role of role model for the negative. Trying to force you into seeing this is what a man does and trying to put you in a box that you don't necessarily care to be in.

Tyler: 13:24

Yeah, I had a question that went along with exactly what Kyler said there, Ollie, is, you know, being here in Utah, so many people are going to say, Hey, Being gay or being transgender, that's nurture. That's not nature. And I think it goes along with what Kyler was saying. You know, did, do you feel that having been raised in your most formidable years with a very toxic masculine individual for a father figure and then, you know, what, we just heard several sisters, do you feel that that impacted the way that you feel and are? Or do you feel it's nature just to kind of help put that to rest for, for everybody that I know is asking specifically, you know, the, the older individuals who aren't so accustomed to this.

Ollie: 14:12

Well, I definitely think that the toxic masculinity side of it was a big factor of it. What taught me that I kind of hitting on what, what Kyler was just saying about role model, whether it's a positive or a negative role model. There are, there are good things to be learned from people, and there are bad things to be learned from people, and there are two reactions to those things that we can take from them. We can either choose the the good reaction, or we can take the negative reaction. So if someone is teaching us to be a hateful person, we can choose to go the opposite direction and become a kind person, because we know what it's like to experience hate or we can also choose the, the bad option, which would be to also become hateful. And so as far as the the toxic masculinity side of it, I feel like I saw that one example as what a man is, and I hated everything about it. I did not feel safe, I did not feel like I, I had anyone to trust. And so like I, I took everything that he taught me with sort of like a, a, like a defensive kind of thing of like, you know, like, well, well, what now, you know? And so my go to person was always my mom. And I don't think that my sisters, specifically growing up in a household with more Girls and boys kind of thing. I, I, I played, like, I kind of like what you were saying, Tyler, of, you know, like, doing dress up, playing with toys, whatever, and all that stuff. I, I think that in some way or another, it did, it did have an effect on me, but I don't know if that specifically was the thing that made me think, you know, this is, this is what I want, this is me kind of thing. I think mostly because I was always in fear when I was playing those games, because I was afraid of when he would come home. So it, a lot of it for me, I think, comes from the resentment of what it means to be a man in my little child brain, but not so much the feminine side of it. I think mostly because I was just afraid of, I guess, digging into that any further.

Tyler: 17:03

Gotcha. Yeah. Thank, thank you for, for going into that and clarifying. So you feel that this has always been you, but there was definitely outside influences that kind of contributed to it as well.

Ollie: 17:17

Right. Yeah. I think that I mean, there's a lot of experiences for a lot of different people and some people feel like they were like they were born in the wrong body. And I don't really feel like I was born in the wrong body, but I, I didn't, I didn't I did not have those feelings when I was that age, you know, like I, I still, I wanted to, or I guess I didn't know it, but I wanted to be more feminine I wanted to do things with my sisters and my mom but because I wasn't allowed to, the, the main thing that I had was that, that resentment, so what I took from it was learn what not to be, and So I learned that I didn't want to be a man, but I didn't know how I wanted to be a woman, I guess.

Tyler: 18:07

Yeah.

Kyler: 18:07

Yeah. And it wasn't very well known back then that you could even do that really from, from what I remember. Right.

Ollie: 18:13

And yeah, there just wasn't there. I guess there, there were words, but as a five to 11 year old child with no internet access early two thousands, I didn't know. So. It was, it wasn't something I learned about until I was in my twenties really. So,

Tyler: 18:31

right. Which is, and that kind of brings up an interesting question is, you know, now it is more known, right? And I feel like most young kids in one way or another have seen a tick talk or a real or something along those lines that is discussed it at least, at least I do. So I mean, I feel like a young child would not necessarily super young, but you get what I'm saying. But now that they see this more often and we're seeing younger and younger individuals transitioning. So with that in mind, and knowing kind of what you experienced, and again, you already mentioned that every individual has a different experience with this, but in your thoughts, looking back on yourself, if that opportunity would have arisen, do you feel it would have been good for you to transition at that point? Or how do you feel about having transitioning or beginning transitioning in later ages?

Ollie: 19:28

So I definitely, I think that it is a very sensitive subject when it comes to, you know, what you want to allow your kids to do. But I really don't think that there's harm in allowing your child to express themselves. You know, when your, your child's a toddler and you let them dress themselves and they have a cowboy boot on one foot and a flip flop on the other, and that's what they want to wear today, then you just let them because they're kids. It doesn't really matter. And, you know, when they get older and they want to, I don't know, if your son wanted to wear a dress to school, I think that that is an okay thing to let your son do. But I do think that it's also wise as a parent to ask them why they want to. Not in like a, you know, it's not an interrogation, but it's a conversation. Really, you want to wear a dress. What makes you want to wear a dress? And just kind of like see where that comes from. Because it could be something that's just very innocent. It could be something that is just like, I don't know, dad, I think it'll be a goofy thing to do. And whatever. And I think that's okay. I do think that it's also important to if they're old enough. I don't have kids yet, so I don't really know the age at which they are, You know, coherence enough to have an intellectual conversation. I know, Tyler, you said you're, you have said in multiple episodes that your son is very smart for a four year old. So maybe having the conversation of, you're asking what makes them want to do that while also being supportive in that. But then maybe like kind of getting into reality of, are you concerned of what your friends might think, or just kind of stuff like that. Like, I don't know, that's, it's a hard one to get into because the more questions you ask, it's kind of like you're leading. And maybe you're going to give these thoughts to them, that, oh, now I have to worry about what my friends think.

Kyler: 21:35

But I do

Ollie: 21:35

think it's important to at least try. Talk to them about it and understand why they want to.

Kyler: 21:40

Yeah, there was a, there was something that I was reading recently about young kids and how they express themselves and how they want to be accepted by their parents. And one of the, one of the things that I enjoyed from that was the conversation piece of when a kid does a piece of artwork and brings it to you and says, daddy, what do you think? And you look at it and our knee jerk reactions like, Oh, I love it. Like no matter what, no matter what it is, you're like, Oh, I love it. It's so great, beautiful scribbles. But one of the things they, one of the things they talked about is asking the question, you know, what, what makes you like that? Why, why did you paint that? And then, and then hit on those topics. And so I really, I really appreciate you bringing out the, the talking points. The thing that scares, the thing that always scares me, especially in Utah and around the culture that we live in is I feel like a lot of people don't feel like they can be their true, authentic self. And I have responded to way too many calls for, um, either mental episodes or suicide in a very young age. And sometimes I wonder if it's just the lack of conversation. And the lack of freedom to express themselves. I liked that you brought up the cowboy boot and the flip flop cause my youngest girl loves dressing up as a cowboy. She thinks it's the coolest thing. It's probably just because I work in law enforcement and I wear a cowboy hat to work or what else, but my nine year old is getting into makeup and she always wants to do my makeup. And I told her recently that for my whole, for one whole year, for one whole summer between my sophomore and junior year, Or freshman and sophomore year, I wore makeup every single day and she didn't really, I did, she didn't understand that it was mostly because I was acting down into a con, but it was one of those things that I was like, nah, I don't care if you, if I, if I wear makeup, it doesn't hurt my feelings. Like I've, I think I've always grown up with the idea of like full acceptance, like no matter, no matter who you are or what background you come from or where you are going, like, I want to be there in your corner to fight for you. And so when she asks if she can paint my nails or do my makeup or do my hair, in fact, I've been growing my hair out really long, mostly for religious reasons, but I do love it. And I do enjoy my daughters when they get to come and play with my hair to try to do it however they want, whether it's braids or put breads or ponytails or anything else like that. So I really, I really appreciate that conversation piece.

Ollie: 24:09

I think it's great that you do that with your daughters, because it shows that you have confidence in your own skin. You know, you have confidence in your masculinity. Just because you put makeup on does not make you less of a man. It means that you're having fun with your daughters, and your daughters will remember that. They're not gonna, they're not gonna have good memories if you say things like, I'm not going to do that because I'm a man. Like, I'll never wear nail polish because I'm a man, or I'll never let you put makeup on me because I'm a man. Then they're going to grow up thinking that not only that you are not confident in yourself, but that really, especially when it comes to the female experience from, from what I have seen Is that your daughters would grow up thinking that you would be ashamed to be seen as feminine, which puts, it puts women at a lower level than masculinity. Even though that, like, those wouldn't be your words to your child if you were to do something like that. That's kind of like the unspoken thing that you're telling them is, I would never subject myself. To this because I'm a man and I'm better than that would make them grow up to probably have a lot of insecurities about being a woman so I think it's really great that you are Comfortable enough in your own skin and that you can Let your daughters just enjoy their time with you.

Kyler: 25:46

Yeah, and it's gonna sound really selfish But I mostly do it because I want them to have the best example of what a man can be And what a man should be And kind of sway them into knowing what type of man they want to look for, if it's a man they want to look for in the future. To just be like, well, my dad did this. So if you're not cool with that, then you're probably not that cool man.

Tyler: 26:09

I wish I had that TV show button that makes the crowd go. Oh, I was, I was going to say, I think

Kyler: 26:14

I have that button on here, but I'd have to go searching for it. I know I had the crowd applause one, which is kind of silly.

Tyler: 26:20

So Ollie, thank you for, for talking about that and going into, I think it's super important for us to know. And I think it's a key question that people have, especially, you know, when I was raised, this wasn't even something that was talked about, but it wasn't. Around, we didn't see it. Right. And so one thing that we've said in the podcast is the world changes, you change with it, right? Like you don't have to accept or do everything right. Like if it becomes kosher for you to, you know, use cocaine, like you don't have to use cocaine, you know what I mean? And so it's just having that knowledge for us is important because it's an education. Parents don't get taught. We don't we don't get coached on how to be a parent. We don't get coached on how to be a parent. And the only way to know how to help individuals like yourself, right. Or to parent somebody who may be trans is to listen from somebody who is. So,

Ollie: 27:18

yeah. And I, I, I like what you, you were saying as far as like, just because it is okay, doesn't mean that you have to, and that kind of correlates with like same sex marriage and had so many people so upset. And, and it just, it never made sense to me why people would be so upset about something like that enough that we would pass laws to not allow these people to live their life the way that they wanted to. Just because, well, we don't like it. And if it's legal, and you're not gay, Then don't get gay married and it's not a problem.

Tyler: 27:53

Mm hmm.

Ollie: 27:54

Exactly. But like, why would we keep that away from other people just because you don't like it? It doesn't make any sense.

Tyler: 28:02

You're spot on. Is there anything else that you feel would be important to say for your childhood?

Ollie: 28:09

I mean, I guess the only other things that I was going to kind of touch on was, like, really just kind of based around growing up around the church. Because I wasn't Mormon, I, like, having to try to make friends in a culture that did not want to really associate with anyone that was outside the church. And it was like, at least back then, as a young kid, was like being Mormon was like a competition of which the competition I was immediately disqualified from.

Tyler: 28:42

Oh, that sucks. That's

Ollie: 28:44

a, that's an interesting unit of

Tyler: 28:45

itself. I've never even heard that.

Ollie: 28:48

Yeah, it I mean, it made growing up in Utah really difficult. And I think that kind of added to the, like, the, the discontent that I had with the world. So, Like I tried boy scouts and I was constantly told that I shouldn't be there by my peers because I, I don't go to church, so I shouldn't be in scouts. And because you weren't a part of their deacons

Tyler: 29:16

quorum or whatnot.

Ollie: 29:18

Exactly. So a lot of things like that. So like with scouts, I dropped out before I even got my second badge. I don't even remember what it was. It was so long ago, but, I dropped out because every time I showed up, I would, it wasn't from the adults, but it was from my peers, these other kids that were telling me that I didn't belong. And this was a, it was supposed to be something for me to make friends and to belong with people. And then, you know, making friends with people, but I would lose these friends because their parents wouldn't want them to be influenced by me. So like when you're like a

Tyler: 29:58

child in elementary school, you're trying to be friends with certain parents and even that would happen.

Ollie: 30:03

Yeah. So like, I would make a friend at school and we would want to hang out after school. And back then my, you know, that maybe is a common thing, I don't know, but my mom would have to meet. My friend's parents as well. And usually after that meeting, my mom would just take me home and tell me that usually she was in tears because they just told her that they didn't want their child to be influenced by someone that wasn't in the church. Wow. And

Tyler: 30:37

that breaks my heart as a parent that just makes me so sad and so angry. It was very

Ollie: 30:44

isolating. And I would think probably the worst, the worst memory that I have. I can laugh about it now, but I got dumped the day after I asked a girl out. We rode the bus home together every day. And so we, we would always, we were the two last stops. So I was the very last stop and she was the one right before that. So we were always on the bus together at the very end. And so we made good friends. And eventually, we were in fifth grade at that point, so we didn't, you know, we didn't ask out. We asked if, if they would be, will you be my girlfriend kind of thing. And so, I asked her to be my girlfriend, and she said yes. And then she showed up to school the next day with like a flat look in her eyes and said my parents said that I can't. Go out with you because you're not Mormon. And, like, it was all kinds of stuff like that that, like, really made me kind of like not only push away from the church because to me, as far as I could tell, was I was a good person but just because I didn't go to church on Sunday for some reason, I was, I was a heathen. And I was just trying to fit in. I was just trying to make friends.

Kyler: 32:06

And every corner you just felt less than.

Ollie: 32:09

Yeah, and I mean it, it got Even into, like, my teenage years in, like, high school and stuff. It was kind of constant. I grew my hair out. It, I got it to ten inches long, and my whole purpose was so that I could donate it, and it needed to be at least ten inches long. I remember that. So I spent a year, or whatever, I spent that whole time growing it out, constantly getting ridiculed, because boys aren't supposed to have long hair, and all that stuff. And we had just moved into a house, and right up the road from the school, and we met my neighbor. And I was in my room playing video games, and my mom is, for some reason, walking this guy through our house, giving him a house tour, even though he lived right next to us for however many years before. It was a really weird situation, but he came up, and I'm just in my room playing video games. He started talking to me about Scouts, and I told him, you know, I've, I've tried that before. And then he was like, well, at least you can go to church now, and I, I told him, no, I don't go to church. And he told me, well, don't you know that that means you're going to grow up and be a rapist and a murderer?

Kyler: 33:20

What?

Ollie: 33:21

And, yeah, he, my mom immediately kicked this guy out. Good for her. The second he said that. As

Kyler: 33:26

she should.

Ollie: 33:27

Yeah. Yeah. So, it was like, things like that, all through growing up, that made me feel very resentful towards the church, but also just kind of in the world, like, why am I not good enough? Even my neighbor doesn't like me, you know,

Kyler: 33:44

yeah, that's a very interesting perspective. It reminds me, there's a, there's a few things you said that remind me of things in my own experience growing up and I was just going to touch on them. I remember a girl that I dated in junior high. I remember one day we broke up and the very next day the rumor was, was because she wasn't Mormon and I had no idea that she wasn't Mormon. But apparently everyone else knew that she wasn't. And so then that was kind of the rumor that I broke up with her cause she wasn't Mormon. I know. And that wasn't the case. I was, I was pretty shocked. I, I can't even begin to imagine how you feel with every corner. You know, whether it's boy scouts being ridiculed by fellow aged individuals or from your first girlfriend telling you, my parents said, I can't date you cause you're not Mormon. That kills me. Like I was sitting here tearing up as I was listening to that because you know, scouting was such a beautiful thing for me and it was very formidable for my ears. I, if I didn't have that, who knows where I'd be. But I remember you telling me that your neighbor said that you'd be a murderer and a rapist. I remember I Had an issue with always talking in all the classes I was ever in. I was a very disruptive person because of my ADD and I had a Member in one of my wards growing up that pulled me out and told me, you know If you don't stop talking and start listening, you're gonna be in jail before you ever make it to your mission And so

Tyler: 35:14

just a few years.

Kyler: 35:15

Yeah. And so, and so I, cause you're a police officer. I know. So, so I went back to that person after I became a police officer and, and kind of harassed him a little bit and was just like, look at me now. I did, I did go to jail, but just voluntarily and I'm taking other people there. So yeah, look at you. They, they claim that they don't ever remember telling me that, but I know for a fact that it did.

Tyler: 35:36

Let's, let's do that transition to your adolescence. If that's cool with you, Ollie.