The Eye-ler Perspective

26 - Don't Ask, Don't Tell - Ollie's Voice Pt. 2

• Kyler Gilstrap • Episode 26

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Join us in part two of speaking with Ollie.  We learn about life through her adolescent years, serving in the army, and the beginnings of a relationship.

Tyler:

Welcome everybody to part two of our conversation with Ollie. If you have not listened to part one, go back, take a listen. It's amazing. Ollie, thank you so much for sharing your story. We'll go ahead and kick things off again with this part two, where we left off your adolescence, you just spoke about you know, you got a new father figure at about 11 years old. You talked a little bit about scouting and how that age and inexperience impacted you. And we're excited to continue. Yeah,

Kyler:

you, you made a comment about how, you had a lot of troubles in school acting up due to your temper. And then you said that there was a point around, I want to say 11 or 12 where you decided to become a little bit more distant tell us more about that.

Ollie:

Yeah. So my mom's first marriage went from some somewhere around when I turned five until 11 or 12. And. During that whole relationship, that the whole marriage was obviously like a very stressful time for me, and I didn't have a way to, like, to let that out. So around that time, I was like, I was really easily set off I, you know, I was, I had so much pent up rage from things going on at home that some kid on the playground who, I don't know, stole my toy or whatever it was was like enemy number one. And so when my, when my mom got divorced, it was like that weight was being lifted off of me. I didn't have I didn't have this big looming figure over me that was going to criticize every single thing that I did. And tell me that I'll never be man enough. And of course it wasn't overnight. It took me, took me a good while to kind of start figuring out that I didn't have to worry about that anymore. So I got to a point where I guess the, the rage subsided, but I still, I guess I didn't know how to exist in the world. And I think in hindsight, I can see why, because. All the things that my stepfather was telling me you know, like being a man and all these things that I just, I didn't agree with. So like I can see those things as being kind of like influences in me being transgender. But at the time I, because I didn't know how to really exist in the world, it kind of just felt like there was no point in getting angry about anything. But it wasn't necessarily to the point that it was like the nihilist concept of what's the point. It was just kind of like, I don't know, I feel like for a long time it was, it was calming. It was nice. But I think I compensated as well in a lot of cases where I had these internal feelings and now I was coming to an age where I was starting to understand them, but I didn't know how to talk about them because the only thing that I did know was that anything that wasn't manly was gay or just bad in some way. It was bad. And so I think I overcompensated for a good portion of my childhood where I, like I was still aggressive but not in an angry way. You know, like when you do like punch buggy kind of thing, you know, like you, you, you punch your friends and things like that. And I would do things. Almost out of like, kind of like a rebellion sort of thing. Like I, I was aggressive. So I would punch my friends thinking that it was a joke, but in hindsight, being 32 now, I can, yeah, I was maybe, you know, letting out a little bit of a little bit of anger or I don't know, like, just realizing that I was actually hurting my friends.

Kyler:

Yeah, would it be fair to say that once your, once your mom got separated that you just kind of like that pressure of having that, that toxic masculinity figure in your life, that you're able to just step away and kind of just not give a fuck?

Ollie:

Yeah, I definitely think it was to a point, but he wasn't the only person I guess so When you were asking about siblings, I didn't mention that I have brothers on my dad's side

Tyler:

Oh, okay,

Ollie:

but I I did not I didn't grow up with them. I Basically met my dad when I turned eight And my brothers were already moved out by that point. So

Kyler:

so they're a lot of

Ollie:

really around You So one is 10 years older than me and the other one is more than 10 years older than me. I don't know how old he is. So they were, they were considerably older than me to the point that they weren't really around a lot. But they were also at, at the point where I started actually visiting my dad on the weekends. I would occasionally see my brothers and so they were the other masculine influence and my dad Was always a superhero in my eyes. So he never contributed to the like toxic masculinity side of it He was the positive

Kyler:

influence

Ollie:

Absolutely He was he was the I don't know. He he didn't really play the father figure. He played the Friend figure. Well, that's cool though. So I didn't learn a lot of things. I mean sure. It's cool. Yeah.'cause my dad's my friend, but at the same time, there's a lot of lessons that a dad should teach their child. True. That I feel like I didn't get and that so good and bad. But my, my brothers, I love both of them dearly. They kind of, you know, they had their own way of expressing their. Their masculinity and so I kind of learned a little bit about kind of that negative lesson of what not to be as well. Where it was kind of more of the same thing but not as aggressive. It wasn't like, you know, don't be a sissy kind of thing. It was I don't know, it was just more masculine stuff that I felt like I didn't align with. It didn't make sense to me, it didn't feel right to me. But I didn't feel like I had anyone to really talk to about it. If that makes any sense.

Kyler:

Yeah. On, on that note about finding outlets, were you able to find any outlets or supportive environments, like hobbies or communities or, or friends or anything like that through those adolescent years?

Ollie:

No. That, that I feel like would have been a great idea in hindsight, honestly, but No, when I was growing up, I just, I guess I had the lessons from my mom's first marriage. And I was already ashamed of the thoughts that I was having. So like, even though my mom was an incredibly loving person and would literally love me through anything I mean, she, she would. When, later in high school, when I had a girlfriend, she came to me and she handed me a paper bag full of condoms and said if you're gonna have sex, you need to do it the right way.

Tyler:

So,

Ollie:

like my mom was super supportive. She was like, she was not overbearing and I could have easily talked to her about it, but she was also one of those ones that taught me those lessons like, you can't have your ears pierced, you have to wear your watch on your left wrist. So even though they were, they were small, tiny, insignificant little things, they still came from her. So, I guess, I wasn't really sure if I could say anything.

Kyler:

Yeah, she wasn't totally against the idea of perpetuating that masculinity. She was kind of on the same page.

Ollie:

Right, in, in obviously a much less aggressive manner. Yeah. But, he, she still said those things. And so, in my eyes. She agreed with those things.

Kyler:

You said in the last episode about how in elementary school you used to target, like if someone was your enemy, you'd target them. It just reminded me of a story and I wanted to share it really quickly. I know it might be a weird story. side tangent. But I remember once just shortly after moving into Spanish Fork, Utah and my first winter in elementary school, we built like this crazy snow fort. And I remember we weren't supposed to climb on top of them, but I was laying on top of it, just enjoying the sun rays. And there out of nowhere, this kid just came in, tackled me off the top of the snow fort and it hurt my back pretty bad. And he just got up, started laughing and started walking away. And my rage kicked in and I went and tackled the crap out of them. I hit them from behind and folded them in half the way I remember it. And getting up, I remember knowing I was going to be in trouble. So I walked over to the teachers and the teachers were all sitting there laughing. And I was just like, yeah, well, I know I'm in trouble. They're like, you're not in trouble. I was like, what, why not? And they're like, cause we dared them to go do that. I was like, what? Yeah, it was wild. Anyway, sorry for that really random side tangent. But it just reminded me of that like just letting the rage out and and I know and I remember you growing up through high School, I remember when you grew your hair out I always thought it was totally badass but growing up in that Mormon culture every time I try to grow my hair out I was told the same things that you got ridiculed for. Like you couldn't have long hair or long hair made you look like a girl. Or that's not what a priesthood holder would do. That was like one of the big things that really annoyed me. And so I'd always try to push the envelope and grow my hair out or whatnot. And so I feel like I'm definitely taking that back. But

Ollie:

the, the hair thing is a funny one to me because the, I grew it out so that I could donate it. I had a purpose and it was a good purpose. It was a good reason. And. When I eventually cut it after all going through the year plus of ridicule and everything We went to school after the summer and then suddenly everyone was growing their hair out, but now I had short hair And suddenly was the cool thing to do.

Kyler:

Yeah, I remember that because it was so strange I didn't know that you had a purpose for it I was always just really jealous of it because you had long black or white hair Luscious hair and I was like this son of a bitch right here making just having the greatest hair ever and I I sat there I was really jealous and I I do remember when you cut it cuz I was like, oh This is a whole nother person like I was I was not ready for this but the crazy thing about it is They ridicule you even when they don't know that the purpose is good And then I feel like afterwards when you cut your hair all of a sudden you get like all these crazy Compliments it's like all the sudden people are like, oh, hey You do look good underneath all that mop head.

Ollie:

Honestly, I felt like what I got most after the whole cutting my hair thing was like people had completely forgotten all the things that they said to me. So I'm going through a year plus of being told that I was you know, I looked like a girl or, you know, gay slurs and all that stuff. Constantly being told those things or being told that I was a, a heathen or whatever.

Kyler:

I love it when people call me that.

Ollie:

Yeah. I mean, it's a point of pride now, but as a child, it's a little different. Yeah, sure. So yeah, it was like after I cut my hair and suddenly everyone that had ridiculed me for the last year was growing their hair out and they didn't remember all of the hateful things that they had said to me. And I was just, again, kind of outed. And I'm just like, I can't do anything right. Yeah.

Tyler:

At this point, just to make sure, to clarify, at this point, though, you did feel that you were transgender at this point, or, and I guess another question to clarify, is that you're not? We know you're transgender, do you consider yourself queer as well?

Ollie:

So yes, I consider myself queer. I am, as far as my sexuality goes, I am pansexual. I'm attracted to pretty much anybody. So men, women, trans people, like it doesn't really matter to me, so. Queer in that sense, yes and as far as knowing that I was trans, still at that point, I did not. At least, I did not know the words for it however, at that point in my life, when, you know, video games are becoming a thing, and, Just kind of anything that had like a, a character builder or whatever, where you get to choose which character you want to play. I would always choose the female character. I would always favor the feminine option on anything. And I did that with video games and things like that because It was a, like a place where I couldn't be judged. Yeah. And you could live into any role. That was so, so when you, yeah, that was one of those like first clues. Yeah.

Tyler:

Sorry. Sorry. I interrupted there. All right. I didn't mean to, I was just going to say along with that, like those first clues. So did you feel like at that point when people are bullying you for your long hair or, you know, making jokes about you being gay, did they hit harder for you? Like, was it. Really painful at that point, or at that point, were you not considering your sexuality per se, you, it may be those things. Yeah, I,

Ollie:

the, the sexuality thing, I don't feel like I really, like I knew I was, I was attracted to girls. I can't say that I knew I was attracted to to men at that point. But I think that that was still being extremely suppressed. Where any thoughts that I would have like that, I would just feel so bad about them that, you know, I would just internally, I would just beat myself up over it. So I think at that point in my life, I was still very much in a state of denial. I had feelings, but I didn't want to address the feelings, I guess.

Tyler:

That makes sense. Thank you. Thank you for, for clarifying that. And one thing as you've been talking. It's weird how when you, you listen to somebody explain their experience, sometimes you can see yourself in the story. But sadly I can see myself on, on the negative side, right? I, I feel like I definitely said harsh things to people who are maybe on my football team who were gay or, or possibly trans. I don't know at this point, writer or in middle school, I can think of somebody specifically who I remember I had said some things to, not necessarily because I. Was against it, but I kind of wanted to fit in with what everybody else was saying and I feel really bad for that so anybody who's listening who may be I have offended in the past for making a Joke about your sexuality or what not along those lines. I I apologize. I I'm so sorry for that and Thank you Ollie for sharing your side of that type of a situation

Ollie:

Yeah, thank you. I think that it's a big thing, even though we're all kind of here talking to each other to be able to admit that you've done something wrong is a very brave and strong thing for you to do. So I appreciate that. Whether or not those things were said to me, I honestly can't remember. So, no hard feelings on my side, but I think that kind of brings up an interesting or a good point that even though we do or say bad things at some point in our lives, or we, we believe certain things at a certain point we are allowed to change and we're allowed to grow. And I think that when we do that for the better for example if you said hateful things to people when you were younger. And now you don't believe those things, I, I would think that those people who you said that to they should give you the benefit of the doubt and you know, be willing to forgive. And that's why I think it's a good thing for you to, to admit that and to apologize for it, even though you're not standing in front of the person that you said it to. I think that that's something that one of those toxic masculinity things that I learned. Was never apologize and I learned, I learned later after I was in the army and had a lot of very hard grown up lessons that humbling yourself and and being willing to say, I'm sorry, is probably one of the best things that you can do for not only yourself, but the people around you. So. I think that's a very big thing for you to do.

Kyler:

I think that's, I think that's an important to, to recognize and to that you pointed out especially is that we've all made choices and said things in the past that we are not very proud of. And I think, especially with a lot of different figures, if you go far enough in anyone's past, you might be able to find something that they said or did that is contrary to who they are now. And there's a lot of that cancel culture going around, but I do think it's. Incredibly important to be able to allow people the grace to change if we're living into our true authentic selves and being who we are, the best that we can be, we would only hope that that would make us better people now than we were before. And I know I've had a lot of conversations with my wife about how, you know, the person that she met seven years ago and who I am now are two totally different people we just took a really long trip with the family to Colorado to visit my brother and we had eight hours of, well, 16 total, but eight hours of conversation. And I remember halfway through one of our car rides, I just started, you know, tearing up telling her how much I loved her and how grateful I was that she was willing to be an anchor for me as I was going through all these different transitions and figuring out who I was religiously and who I am now versus who I was when she met me. And just how important it is to be able to have someone to be there almost like a cheerleader in your corner. That's how I wanted to segue into your love life. I want to talk about your wife and how you guys met.

Ollie:

Yeah, I met Camille in high school I guess we probably met in junior high, but we didn't really start hanging out or talking until 12th grade and the funny thing about her was that I always, Had a thing for her. But as far as I was aware, she was always dating someone. And I learned later that she was never actually dating anyone. And I was just too afraid to ask. So we ended up finally getting to the point where we started dating in high school. And it was like maybe the last half of high school. We started dating and it was like right around the time where I had enlisted for the Army. At the time I was not sure of where it was gonna go. I had actually just recently brought up with a, with a girl maybe a few weeks before. Hmm. And. I broke up with her specifically because I was joining the army and I knew I was going to leave my goal was To not have any girlfriends I was going to serve 20 years and my whole purpose was going to be to serve in the military I wasn't going to get married. I wasn't going to date anybody like in my head. I was thinking Like the army is the only thing that I care about and so I broke up with that girlfriend and And then a couple of weeks later, I found out that Camille was not dating anybody. And I was like, I got to take the chance.

Kyler:

Got to shoot your shot.

Ollie:

I immediately shot that shot and then went the opposite direction on all my army plans. We kept dating as I went off to basic training. And then when I was in, in a IT I don't know how much you guys know the military? Yeah. If anyone doesn't know that's advanced infantry training.

Kyler:

Yeah. That's your, that's your job skill.

Ollie:

Yeah. Individual training. So I went in as exposed, coordinate disposal.

Kyler:

Very cool.

Ollie:

Wow. Can I

Tyler:

pause real quick? Yeah. It was, sure. Your decision to join the army, was it an effort to prove masculinity?

Ollie:

Absolutely. It, it 100 percent was it was, it was a way for me to be able to focus on something else hence why I was going so. extreme on, like, dating and all that stuff, like, it was if I serve 20 years, I'll be in my late 30s, early 40s by the time I need to start thinking about who I want to date, how I want to be, what I want to be, all these things. It was just kind of like my way of kind of pushing it down the road. A 20 year long road. Yeah. Yeah. So it definitely was when I, I, I wanted to do it, or at least I had convinced myself that I wanted to do it. There was a lot that I, I really wanted to get out of being in the military. I think I went into it having more pride in the military than I did when I came out of it, for sure.

Kyler:

I feel like that's most people who serve.

Ollie:

Yeah, yeah, for sure. They see, they see Oz behind the curtains.

Tyler:

Yes,

Ollie:

exactly. You'll meet your heroes and that kind of thing. It was definitely a way for me to kind of just not think about any of those things and at the time, don't ask, don't tell was still a thing. And so like, it was just kind of like, At that point you're dating

Tyler:

somebody too, right? So

Ollie:

Right, right. And while I won't say that dating Camille was a masculinity thing the fact that she was a woman was a straight thing, and that was a masculine thing. So maybe like a little bit of like subconscious thing there maybe, but yeah, so.

Kyler:

I just remember when you and Camille got together in high school. It was just like peanut butter and jelly like it looked like it just made sense Like it was just like yeah, this is the perfect couple and even all the way up till now I guess is a spoiler alert. I still love your guys's relationship Like it's it's so fun to see on social media and everything else, but I know thank you. I want to get into that Yeah, we'll hit more of that

Ollie:

one later. For sure. Yeah. So where else to go from there? Oh, so you're at AIT,

Kyler:

you're doing explosive ordnance disposal.

Ollie:

So yeah, so in AIT then we, Camille and I had a conversation where basically she was like, I don't want to be. Your girlfriend from across the country. If we're gonna be together, I want to be your wife and while I will say in the 13 years since it's been great. However, I was 19 years old at the time, and my advice to everyone, especially the people joining the military, is don't get married when you're 19. Of course.

Kyler:

That's not what your, your recruiter tells you asking

Ollie:

for a lot

Kyler:

Yeah. The recruiter tells you, Hey man, if you get asking for a lot of problems though. Yeah. Your recruiter tells you, Hey man, if you get married quick, then you get more pay and they get to live on base and all this other benefits. Exactly.

Ollie:

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. They will tell you that for sure. And then you'll be broke and be paying child support for it. Because

Kyler:

you're young and dumb and you're going to have a quick baby and you're going to have a quick divorce. Yeah. That's what some cases are. Most. It's high. Right. Most

Ollie:

cases.

Kyler:

Yeah.

Ollie:

The first thing, so on that note the first thing that I was asked when I got back from my wedding was from my platoon sergeant, when I handed him my marriage certificate so that I could start that whole paperwork process. He looked up at me and said, Oh, congratulations. How long do you think this one will last? And then all of the platoon sergeants placed bets on how long I would be married for, and the longest bet was one year. So that's how common it is to get married and immediately get divorced in the military.

Tyler:

Did they pay you?

Kyler:

When you won the bet, did they pay you?

Ollie:

No, they did not. Of course. And in fact, I went through six months of not getting paid because of that. So they, yeah, they messed up my paperwork and I ended up not getting literally was not getting paid

Tyler:

for six

Ollie:

months. And like I wasn't getting haircuts or anything. So I was, I was getting in trouble all the time. It was a bad time. Yeah, exactly. So they weren't paying me. So I got in trouble because I wasn't staying in regs. it was a great start to the military which soured my experience almost immediately.

Kyler:

And where were you, where were you when you were doing the EOD? Was that down in Alabama?

Ollie:

So it starts in well, at least when I did it, I don't know anymore, but. It started in Redstone, Alabama, for phase one,

Tyler:

and then

Ollie:

phase, that one is just kind of like, it's almost like just general stuff. I don't even know why they have phase one and phase two, because phase two kind of goes through all over the same thing again.

Kyler:

Right, yeah.

Ollie:

But phase two is in Eglin Air Force Base in Florida.

Tyler:

Mm

Ollie:

hmm. So, I, basically once I got to Eglin in phase two is when we decided to get married, and she moved to Florida, and basically the only reason we were able to put Hamburger Helper and Ramen on the table every night was because she got a job.

Tyler:

So,

Ollie:

yeah, it was a really rough, we, we also only had my motorcycle, which I had purchased before we got married. So we didn't have a car. So everything that we did was on my Ducati monster, which is fun in Florida

Kyler:

because of how much it rains.

Ollie:

Oh my god It's unreal And it still rains in the winter too. Yeah,

Kyler:

you have you have no break

Ollie:

Yes. Yeah. So it was a great time. And then eventually I reclassed to UAV maintenance. So I worked on drones.

Kyler:

Cool.

Ollie:

And so I started on the RQ seven Bravo drone, which is basically just a lawnmower with wings. Honestly I don't know how that thing is considered a stealth vehicle at all cause you can hear it from 10 miles away.

Kyler:

Yeah. That's the bad thing about some drones.

Ollie:

It's so terrible. It's like something like a six or seven foot wingspan and it's built with all kinds of things that you could have bought at Radio Shack.

Kyler:

You know, the, the military always

Ollie:

entirely too much money.

Kyler:

Yeah. The military always puts out the best for their equipment.

Ollie:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Especially for the army. Yes. The army So, before I finished my training on the Shadow UAV I got voluntold for advanced training on the new platform that was the Grey Eagle. And the Grey Eagle is the Army's dollar store budget version of the Air Force's Predator.

Kyler:

Okay.

Ollie:

So that's

Kyler:

the, that's

Ollie:

the one that most people know is

Kyler:

the predator. At least I know.

Ollie:

Yes. Yeah. So that one's the one that gets all the movie screen time and everything. Absolutely. Army gets the, the, the budget version of it. So it's got a propeller instead of a jet engine. It can't fly as far for as long, you know, it's, it's a budget. It's like going to Dollar Tree and getting a war machine.

Kyler:

That's exactly what you want out of your war machine.

Ollie:

Exactly. So yeah, that I kind of went from, from one to the other and then ended up getting stationed at Fort Bragg where they did not have UAVs at the time. They didn't have the gray Eagle at the time. So I was sent there to start up a new unit and it never did get started. So I was there being I was the secretary for the command group. So the. The battalion sergeant or command sergeant major and Colonel, I basically just set up appointments for them every day for two years.

Kyler:

So they just kind of put you out the

Ollie:

pasture that way. Oh yeah. Yeah. So yeah. And at that point is when I decided I didn't want to be in the military anymore. So that kind of added to the crap. I have to start thinking about this sooner thing. And of course I was already married at that point. So. That, that kind of took care of the whole who I'm gonna be with, whether it was a man or a woman or friends person or whatever. But the whole transitioning thing, I still, I, let's see, I was 24 at the time that I got out. 29. I was 22. Yeah, I was 22, so I still didn't have the words. And because I had been building this life of Army man. I, I guess I had just kind of gotten used to pretending, I guess, is kind of the best way to put it. So I didn't, I don't know, I, I guess I still didn't have the words and I didn't feel like I had anyone that I could talk to. And I, even at this point, I still hadn't said anything to Camille. So because I was, I was afraid, you know, I was, A man who married a woman who thought that she married a man and so the idea of me coming out to her, in my mind, and I feel like this is probably a very common thing for trans and just LGBT people in general when they're afraid to come out, is that you feel like your entire world is going to crumble the second you admit it. So the idea of me saying it to Camille was terrifying because I thought that once I did, she would want to leave me.