The Eye-ler Perspective

27 - Home Depot Lesbian - Ollie's Voice Pt. 3

• Kyler Gilstrap

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Part 3 is here!! Learn about how Camille reacts to Ollie's announcement, an Epic 30th Birthday Party, and more struggles in transitioning.  

Kyler:

Welcome everybody to another episode of the Islay perspective as Kyler and Tyler. And we're here with Ollie on part three. Of our conversation with her.

Tyler:

If you have not listened to the previous two parts, please do. It has been an amazing conversation so far. We're so excited to continue and we'll hand it back over to you, Ollie, to pick up talking about Camille.

Kyler:

Last week's episode, we kind of left you on a nail biter. So we're going to go ahead and get into this, this week and learn more about Ollie and her coming out to her wife. we left off with you talking about how you felt like you're absolutely terrified to come out to your spouse because you felt like your world was going to crumble. I can't speak to that experience specifically, but I do relate when I came out to my wife that I was no longer Mormon. And that I remember that experience and I can only sympathize a little bit that it was terrifying. I was afraid of the same thing that she was going to leave me and I was pleasantly surprised by the reactions. So tell us more about your experience with Camille.

Ollie:

Yeah. So I feel like I, I kind of went into this with almost a psychological kind of plan of maybe I can just kind of hint things at her. And see what she says and, and work her up to it. So honestly it was probably like, it was probably going to sound crazy, but it was like five years.

Kyler:

Yeah. You don't, you don't, you don't throw the crab into the boiling water. You put it in and slowly raise the temperature, that kind of idea.

Ollie:

Right. So for years I, at this point back up a little bit. At some point around 25, 26, I had learned what transgender was and suddenly things started making sense. So I started learning more about it. But I'm, I'm kind of like ADHD. And when I learn about something, I super hyper focus on it, but I didn't have anyone to talk to about it because it was still a very sensitive thing to me. So. I would hold on to this information for as long as I could until I felt like I had, I don't know, like our conversation was kind of related to this topic. So, oh, hey, I read this thing about transgender people, and turns out they exist. What do you think about that? Yeah, just kind of like seeing how she would react to it. She never reacted poorly. I think at first she was shocked at the idea like anything more than like, I guess cross dressing, you know, like drag queens and things like that. That was totally fine, totally normal. But somebody who would live their life like in public in what at that time she, she perceived as cross dressing I think she didn't understand it. So, Yeah, it was, it was literally years of me just kind of hinting at these things and in hindsight I realized I, I could have talked to her a lot earlier. But I was just, I was so afraid because I had that fear that that she married a man and the moment that I tell her that I am not the man that she thinks that I am, she's going to leave me and my whole life is going to fall apart. Even though all of, it's the same thing with my mom my mom and Camille were both very loving, very supportive, never gave me any real reason to think that that they wouldn't be okay. Like, they had gay friends. My mom and my wife both have and have had gay friends and people in the LGBT community. And so they were obviously comfortable with the idea. At least to the, to the effect of them being supportive, like being allies, but they were still like, they were just, I don't know, it was like, The analogy that I used when I started talking to a therapist finally was being on the fence where I'm trying to figure out if I should climb the fence, if I should jump over to their side and tell them and the fear of them rejecting me. And I guess that kind of goes back to the childhood of, of rejection and just dealing with all of that. So the fear was too powerful, I guess. And so it, it wasn't until, let's see, I think my 27th birthday. We were all discussing what we wanted to do for our 30th birthdays. I don't know why we were talking about it that early. That's a really long time to plan.

Kyler:

You need a long time to plan an epic 30th birthday though.

Ollie:

Yeah. We were all coming up with ideas, and when it got to me, I, I wanted to do a legitimate Dirty 30, where everyone was going to be hobos. And we were going to eat off of trash can lids and it was going to look dirty as hell.

Tyler:

That is not what I thought you meant by dirty 30.

Ollie:

Not that kind.

Tyler:

I was like, Oh damn, we're going there. Wow.

Ollie:

I hadn't even talked to my friends yet. I can't, or my wife. I hadn't even thought about talking to my friend. So yeah, so I was going to have a hobo party. And then

Tyler:

that's so cool. Sorry. I want to do a hobo party, Kyler. We should do that. That sounds so fun. Imagine like a Oreo dirt hill and all that, like the, the dirt pudding or whatever, and maybe just totally dirt themed, probably a little bit more child geared. Probably wouldn't have been as fancy as yours, Ollie, but. I think we got to do that.

Ollie:

Imagine the platters, all the plates, the trash can lids.

Kyler:

No, I think that's a perfect idea.

Ollie:

That, that idea alone, I was just like, I'm sold. I'm doing it.

Kyler:

Well, I've, I've always seen those Tik TOK videos recently of like people doing like a dirty dinners where they put a whole bunch of aluminum foil and stuff on their table and just pour out pots of like spaghetti or like chips and queso, or just a bunch of randomness all on a table, a

Tyler:

pot of spaghetti on a trash can.

Kyler:

Yeah, dude, it hits different.

Ollie:

Oh, that sounds so great, though. So yeah, that was my idea for my 30th, but then Camille chimed in and she was like, No, we need to do a drag party for your 30th. And for me, there was no need for convincing.

Kyler:

Yeah, I mean, did you already come out to her at that point for your 27th birthday?

Ollie:

At that point, I think I had told her, I think I showed her a picture or a few pictures of transgender people. We had conversations where I would tell her things like if, if I could, I would look like this. That was kind of how I like started telling her. I was like, if, if it were possible, if I was feminine enough, this is how I would like to be. I would like to be. More feminine. I don't like being masculine, but I am masculine. So like, it was just kind of like, oh, well it sucks for me. Mm-Hmm.

Tyler:

She kind of understand. No. At that point. But you just hadn't told her yourself verbally.

Ollie:

She had, she had thought about it from what she's told me. She had a feeling because at that point I had talked to her about this subject so many times. Mm-Hmm. That when I did finally come out to her, she was just like. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of obvious. That's so sweet when they're like, yeah, at that point, right. So at that point we had kind of talked about it but it was kind of like one of those, you know, in a different life kind of things. Yeah. So when she suggested it I think it was in at least some way or another because she knew that I would, I would like it. We would also all, we would. Go to drag shows we would take our friends to drag shows, which our friends are all kind of like, I don't know, conservative, like, they, they, typically a lot of them are very, like, weird about the whole drag thing, or were. And, so we would take them to drag shows because I have a blast at drag shows. They are the funnest, social event that I have personally ever experienced. They are. Hysterical. They're so much fun. If you have not been to a drag show, 100 percent recommend it. It is such a wonderful time.

Kyler:

I've only heard stories about some of my friends that have gone to drag shows and how absolutely hilarious they are and how it's just so much fun because, you know, everyone's just almost like playing a part, like a part of them might feel like that's, that's like exactly who they are, but it's like, there's no judgment. So you just get to be free. And just, just the laughter and the games and the play that they all get to do is just bar none. The only, the only experience I've ever had with a drag show and this is not an experience at all. But a couple of years back I w I served on our riot team and, Oh, you

Tyler:

talked about in that last episode.

Ollie:

Did I?

Tyler:

Yeah.

Kyler:

About the right

Tyler:

team. Well, isn't that when you wore the pin, the LGBTQ?

Kyler:

No, that was just when I did security for Oh, the LGBTQIA plus. Yeah. Now this is a different event, but they actually had a drag show in Provo, which is, I think, I think it was like the second annual, but it was really surprising because no one in Utah really knows how to react to that. And so because of the dissonance for the culture in the area, they put the riot team on standby.

Tyler:

Whoa,

Kyler:

yeah, and so we we weren't quite sure exactly how it was going to go down But we were all stuffed into like this delivery van Around the corner just in case things popped off because we didn't know how polarizing it would be But it was so funny because they had a live feed to the to the drag show and so we were all sitting in this hot Van that had no AC in our full riot gear. And, and a bunch of cops are watching this, this drag show. And it was fun because it was like every person that came up on stage wanted to pull up, pull up one of the police officers there that was in uniform doing security. And we were all just laughing in the back of this van as these police officers just didn't know how to react because if there's anything you know about, Like, like, you would, you know, with the army, but it's just full of people who are like type a macho men also don't want to talk. Yeah. And in Utah, I don't want to see them

Tyler:

are LDS. Yeah.

Kyler:

And so it's like, they don't want to be seen at this event period, but now they're being dragged up on stage and their awkwardness. It was hilarious. Sounds so funny. Yeah,

Ollie:

that's so funny. Yeah, it is a really wonderful experience, and I recently went to a drag show in Vegas with my boss, who I do the the pharmaceutical stuff I do with another company. I didn't, I don't think I clarified that, but I subcontract with the company that does the pharma stuff. And so we took the owner of the company as a work meeting, we were supposed to be

Tyler:

having a meeting talking about our plans. And

Ollie:

instead, we went to I think it was Senior Frogs in Vegas. And that was hands down the best, funniest drag show I've ever been I've ever been to. The hostess called me a Home Depot lesbian. Which was like somehow the most euphoric and accurate thing that has ever been said about me.

Kyler:

You're like, man, you hit it spot on.

Ollie:

Yeah, it was so funny. So that's been my nickname lately, is Home Depot. Depot, lesbian. So Depot,

Tyler:

that's gotta be the name of this episode.

Kyler:

We'll name this one that It's so funny.

Ollie:

hilarious. So yeah, it's a great time if, yeah, if you ever get the chance, absolutely do it. It's so much fun. And definitely bring dollar bills because, you know, you tip them like you do strippers, basically. But it, it's, for the most part, the one at Senior Frogs is definitely not like. Family friendly like there was not specifically nudity, but it was like sexual in nature But most of the shows that i've gone to are family friendly. It's just Drag queens dancing and singing and stuff like that. So it's not normally In those cases not like I had no idea.

Kyler:

I don't think you take much I don't think you'd take much to get me to dress up and drag and sing on a stage

Tyler:

Yeah, I mean I was gonna say I didn't even know that that I so all I have friends who? Who go to that and they post it on? Instagram and in snapchat and I've seen A lot of videos of drag events, and I genuinely thought all of them were sexual. It's not that it's just, my friends are sexual ones. That's so funny. Cause I was like, I don't honestly know if I want to go, but it makes sense. Cause they're not all sexual. And that is just right. Yeah.

Ollie:

And they have like, some places will have different shows. So there's a place called hamburger Mary's which was like our first experience. We've gone there a couple of times. But during the earlier hours in the day, it's family friendly, and literally there are families with their kids and everything. And it's just basically drag queens that are lip syncing, and it's just a fun, funny time. And then, like, the later hours they'll, they'll do, like, a little bit more, like, raunchy jokes and stuff like that.

Tyler:

Mm

Ollie:

hmm. But like, the thing that always gets me about the whole anti drag show thing that's been going on is everyone's saying that they're sexual in nature. But like, you gotta think about how many layers these people are putting on just to put on the show. They've got like, They've got slips, they've got fake hips. They've got 14 pairs of undie underwear or like leotard. Like they got so many layers on nobody's getting naked. It's a full production. Much work. Yeah. Yeah. It'd be like, like in Bridgerton, they just magically are naked. Those sex scenes. Like how did

Tyler:

that

Ollie:

happen? How do we pull this off? Exactly. It's kind of like that. So yeah, it's not, it's really not that bad. There are some that, like I said, they have more raunchy humor and stuff, but they're mostly from my personal experience, but mostly family friendly. I was going

Tyler:

to give a jab at my dad because I was saying, Hey, my dad's done drag. But he didn't, he, he dressed as a, as an old lady for Halloween. And then I was like, Oh shit, I, I, I did drag. I dressed as a cheerleader for Halloween in fifth grade, in elementary school. I borrowed my cousin's. Cheer uniform from Spanish Fork High School, and I was a cheerleader That's funny. I forgot about that till right now.

Kyler:

I wonder if there's a picture flying around with that

Tyler:

Oh, that for sure is. Dad, if you got that picture go ahead and Share that I had, I had full on a full face of makeup. Wow. Yeah.

Kyler:

You probably looked really pretty.

Tyler:

We got to find it. I did.

Kyler:

Yeah. I believe you. Yeah, I

Ollie:

was. I need, I need to see pictures. Okay.

Kyler:

Yeah. Pictures or it didn't happen.

Tyler:

Dad, that's on you.

Kyler:

So, so so 27th birthday, your wife says, Hey, we should do your 30th in drag. And, and you're like yeah, done. It was so easy.

Ollie:

Absolutely. Because in my head, I'm thinking this is the perfect opportunity for me to get to dress how I want to dress. And we can play it off like a joke, and it'll be totally fine, and no one will think anything of it. So for three years, we planned this party. It did not disappoint. And when it came time we went dress shopping, which was a hilarious experience in and of itself. We ended up getting my dress at, I think it was David's Bridal. And, obviously at that time. Was not out. So I was fully presenting as male, had facial hair and everything.

Kyler:

Because you always had a really epic beard too.

Ollie:

I would not call it epic. I would call it a static excuse for sure. Wow. Beard. Yes. So yeah, we walk in, this lady comes up and she's like, she's looking at Camille and she's saying like, how can I help you? What's the occasion? Camille was just quiet, and I was like, No, no, hun. It's for me. She, she looked shocked. Then, suddenly, she was just like, Oh, I got you. Then she went through every single aisle, and she picked out every dress that was, like, she knew my size, right then and there. She was having so much fun getting dresses for me. She ended up getting me like, I think I tried on like 14 dresses.

Tyler:

I'm picturing like Jonathan from Queer Eye. At David's bridal. Is that kind of the imagery there?

Ollie:

I, I was in like shorts and a t shirt. Okay.

Tyler:

I'm just picturing you walking in like slaying the scene and you're just like taking over in that

Ollie:

wedding dress. I'd like as masculine as I have ever been capable of achieving. that's, that's about where we were at. So I did, I definitely did not look like the type of guy that would be there for a dress at all. So she got the attention of multiple people there. And I guess they weren't very busy. They only had like one other customer there, which was a girl who was like getting ready for prom or something. So her and her mom, they're in there shopping, not really being bothered by anyone. And I had. There were four people that worked there that were all finding new dresses. Oh, that's awesome. And they were, they were having a blast. It was so much fun. So I would try on the dress and then I would come out and I still had hairy legs and everything. I'm telling you, like, it did not look good. But I would try on the dresses and then walk out and I would show everyone. And there were other people in the store and I would just walk out. All of the ladies that work there were like circled around just like Applauding me like I was walking down the catwalk or something. It was hilarious.

Kyler:

How did that feel?

Ollie:

Felt amazing and I I think that was one of those moments where I was just like, I don't know I felt good even though it was like comical it was nice because like these women weren't they weren't saying things like Well, at first they, they were using female pronouns, which was an entirely new thing for me.

Kyler:

Mm.

Ollie:

So they, they weren't saying it like it was a joke. Yeah. They were legitimately like, I was there for this thing and they were having a blast getting to experience that with me. So it was a really like euphoric moment for me. And yeah, just like in general.

Kyler:

And this was at what age?

Ollie:

That was 29. 29, right before your 30s. Maybe a couple months, yeah, right, right before my 30s. One of the funny parts about that too was my, my friend Felipe, I don't know if you remember Felipe Oliveira.

Kyler:

Yes, I do.

Ollie:

Yeah, so he is my best man, best friend, best everything. Yeah. And so he was there dress shopping with me. Cool. And so he and I both walked out of the dressing rooms at the same time he was in a green dress and I was in a red dress and the girl that was getting ready for her prom walked out at the same time and she looked at us like a deer in the headlights. She didn't know what to do and we thought that like she was offended and she just like pauses and then she turns around and she says, Well, nothing is gonna look that good on me. she goes back into dressing me and she slams the door and we were all dying laughing. It was a great experience.

Tyler:

What amazing. What a cool opportunity. So can I, can I ask a quick question for you, Ollie? Sure. And this is on a, like another one of those interaction type questions, right? You mentioned that at that time using pronouns was not common. I feel like now it's slightly more common. I feel more so in like the business world. And you've heard in a previous podcast where I mentioned that I was upset about people being mad for the mayor of Utah using his pronouns he, him. And so I just wanted to ask the question, how important is that to you and your experience? And can you, can you guys kind of talk about the pronouns? Cause for, for myself, like on my LinkedIn, I don't have. He, him, right. Because in my mind, I just assume that that's what people see me as. And so can you explain that? I don't really have, know how to ask that question.

Ollie:

Yeah. So I, I think my perspective on pronouns is definitely unique and very different from other people other trans people or non binary or gender fluid or whatever. I think that so I'll say, I now use feminine pronouns or non binary pronouns. So she, her, or they, them. And the reason that I do both is because I'm kind of comfortable with either. Because I feel like they, them is sort of like an always acceptable term to use until you know that person's pronouns. So. So it's like that's the safe thing that you could do if you don't know what someone identifies as, you can just say they, them. You're kind of, you're encompassing all of it. So it's not an offensive thing. I think I went with that towards the beginning because when I started transitioning, I thought that I was going to move a lot slower in the transition. Due to events that have happened in the last year, I kind of just decided to say for lack of better words, fuck it, and I just did it. So, I chose Ollie as my name because it's sort of an androgynous name. So it could kind of lean one way or the other, and at the time I was thinking maybe I would kind of lean, you know, one day I'm masculine. Like when I go to work, I'm a welder, I'm masculine. And then I, maybe I go out on the weekends and I'm feminine. So I kind of bounce around. So I was using non binary terms for a little while. Where now I'm more comfortable using feminine pronouns, she, her pronouns, because I've just decided to go with it and not really hide it anymore. And as far as other people using the pronouns, like you were talking about the, the governor of Utah. Using his, his pronouns when he was talking with someone who addressed themselves using their pronouns.

Tyler:

Mm hmm.

Ollie:

I, it's such a comically silly thing to be upset about. Honestly. Mm hmm. This, this idea that like, oh, he's, he's caving to the woke crowd and all this crap is just, it's so, it's so silly. It's so dumb. It doesn't make any sense. Why it would be offensive to anybody to just say what your pronouns are.

Kyler:

It takes half a second and then all the curiosity is dispelled and you can move on.

Ollie:

Right. And you just move on. Yeah. It becomes an issue because, Oh, Hey, you said that thing you caved to the woke crowd and now I don't like you anymore. It is just, it's a dumb thing to get upset about. A brief note on that, I will say that the people who complain about that Are the same people who complained about certain people being snowflakes and these people are 100 percent snowflakes. Oh

Tyler:

yeah, a hundred percent. It is definitely silly. I just see it as a way of being respectful. Like if somebody mentions their pronouns to me, then it's like, yeah, why, why, why not? Right? If somebody introduces me and they say their name and their job title. At a business meeting, I say my name and my job title. It's just kind of how the process goes in life a little bit. And so going on with that though, right. I do still see, you know, I are curious to know, is that important for you or the individuals that you, you know, are friends with who are also part of the LGBTQ community, is it important or valuable for you, for us to say it back to you?

Ollie:

I think it's a respectful thing to do. You guys were talking in a previous episode about like I think Britain was talking about it was adopting the customs of the place that you're in. Love it. The country that you're in is kind of the same idea. If someone does that, if I introduce myself as ollie, she, her, then I would just kind of expect that you would. It, for me, is not as big of a thing. I don't get offended by people not using my pronouns. I, especially, like, I don't get offended when somebody misgenders me, especially because a lot of my time I am in my work clothes, which is a button up shirt and pants with boots, and it very easily comes across as a masculine outfit. So, if someone uses he, him pronouns, I don't get offended by it. I understand how I am being perceived because we live in a world that is very gendered. But that's from my perspective of being the one who is being misgendered. I feel like the people who are on the other side of that argument, the ones who are complaining about, well, I shouldn't have to specify. It's, it's such a. Like I was saying, it's such a silly thing to be upset about. It doesn't hurt you at all to just say your pronouns if it becomes relevant. And it's kind of like talking about your sexuality or whatever in a regular conversation. If someone didn't bring it up, it's not relevant. And that's kind of my perspective when I am having a conversation with a new person. I don't tell everybody that I meet that I'm transgender. It's not because I'm ashamed of it. It's just because it's not relevant. A lot of the people that I talk to are on a professional level So I am professionally a welder and fabricator.

Tyler:

Mm hmm

Ollie:

So when I am talking to someone in my professional network, I'm talking to you about welding and fabrication, right? And my gender and my sexuality they don't make these things. It is my skill as a welder that makes these things So I'm not gonna talk Talk about that,

Tyler:

right

Ollie:

So when it's relevant, it makes sense. Right.

Tyler:

Wait, I totally agree with, I guess that kind of leads me to my second part of that question, right? I saw in, in background on it, I speak Spanish and in the past I have seen somebody who appeared to be Hispanic or I heard them speaking in Spanish and then I asked them something in Spanish and it doesn't happen all the time, but it's happened on occasion. Where that individual got mad at me for speaking to them in Spanish, because why would I assume that they speak Spanish or assume that they can't speak English? And so my question for you, Ollie, is on the reverse side, is it inappropriate for somebody who you know, identifies with the normative that most people, you know, Recognize today, right? That's changing and that's the hope of the changes. But if they're going off of the, you know, the, the standard of I'm, I'm a male or I'm a female and they say to you, hi, I'm John. He, him like, is that offensive in any way? If you haven't brought that up at all, cause you mentioned if the time's appropriate, is that offensive? Does that, does that make sense?

Kyler:

So what you're asking is if someone goes and meets Ollie. And, and is questioning where, where Ollie's at. They're

Tyler:

like, I don't know what, where Ollie stands. You're saying

Kyler:

if, if, if someone comes up to Ollie and says, Hi, I'm Kyler, he, him. Yes, exactly. Thank you. Hoping, hoping that Ollie will now reciprocate and tell you where she is. That's a good question. Honestly, I've never really, I've never thought of it like that and I would even Say that that's probably a more respectable way of figuring out someone else's pronouns.

Tyler:

Okay.

Ollie:

I Don't think I Have ever met anyone that would find that offensive Because for me to find that offensive that you said your pronouns would The kind of equivalent of you getting mad for me saying the same thing.

Kyler:

I think you bring up a very interesting perspective there, Tyler. Cause I've never considered that. Like I'm sitting there thinking about the coffee shop experience and some other, other experiences I've had. I'll, I'll tell that story really quickly here in a second, but that is, I think that's super mature. I think that's an easy way of respectfully asking without being like what are your pronouns? You know, like I feel like that's a little bit more straightforward and almost like accusatory. Whereas you're providing the space of saying, Hey, I might have questions, but here's where I'm at. What's your name?

Tyler:

Right. And that's why I wanted to know. Like I feel like that's a good way to do it, but I also didn't want to be offensive because Again, I, I, I don't know if everybody can see the connection of the Spanish and English kind of situation, but I just, I don't want to make people mad or feel uncomfortable by something that I'm doing in a sense of I'm trying to be helpful and meet you in your own language. Right. And then have that turn against me.

Ollie:

No, I think that's probably the, the most respectable way I've ever even considered it. Because for you to walk up to the barista at the coffee shop and say, What are your pronouns? If that person is trans, which they ended up being trans, that person is trans, and what you have just done is essentially you just outed them. Which I'm not sure if you're familiar with the term of being clocked. Is a term that trans people use when someone clocks you is it means that they they recognize that you're trans. So they don't see you as The gender that you identify as they see you as the gender you were born as Being a trans person basically so If you were to go up to this barista and say what are your pronouns they might think you're talking shit Like I yeah, I just got clocked by some random dude with with his daughter and now they feel self conscious.

Tyler:

Yeah, can I get more background on the clock? Sorry. I just want to make sure that I So,

Ollie:

yeah, the term is clocking. Like clocking in and out, not like punching clocked? Yeah. Oh, yes. Clocking in and out. And honestly, I don't know where it came from. It's just something that I have learned in my short time of openly transitioning. But yeah, it basically means that someone has recognized you as trans and not as gay. Cisgendered. Cisgendered would be like, you know, you look at Kyler and you have no, you have no question

Tyler:

that

Ollie:

this is a cisgender man. You would never think that Kyler was a woman at one point who transitioned to a male. So you would never, you would never clock Kyler as a trans man. You would only register him as a male. Cisgendered man. So whereas if you looked at me, it would kind of be a little bit the opposite where I, like, I'm still in that transitioning process. Where a lot of times I do look masculine and if you were to clock me, you would recognize that I was born male.

Kyler:

And that was something that my So I had a, I had this conversation with my brother over this past weekend because I was so excited for this interview and my brother, he's a, he's a plastic surgeon and he deals a lot with trans surgery. It's one of his specialties. And I remember, I remember talking to him about this and he says, you were, you were in the hardest position of them all because you've known Ollie before and you know, all the after. And so it's really difficult for you and your brain to make that connection, but it's something that's beautiful for them, for you to recognize that. I just Googled on urban dictionary clock and it says it's, it's used in gay vernacular. Especially among drag queens to call out someone's flaws to uncover or reveal the truth in a situation or one's true gender. And so it's like, you know, calling them out for what you think it is. The example I can give is, I was doing an extradition a couple weeks ago, and the person that I was extraditing was, Very homophobic and they couldn't help themselves, but to tell me every person that they saw and basically clock them. And I was just like, Hmm, that's really interesting.

Tyler:

Can I ask another question here? Ollie, I want to understand. Cause in my, in my, my view right now, I guess, why would clocking be offensive or hurt in when somebody like, I mean, there's some people, I just saw a show naked and afraid. And the individual identifies as, as female, but it is very clear that they are, or were male, and so it would be easy to make that mistake. And so I guess my, I'm trying to understand, like, especially in the early stages, how that feels and why it offends or why it hurts when, when I assumed they would know that they would appear that way, if this, that makes sense.

Ollie:

Yeah, and I think that's a good question, and I think that it comes down to the individual. One of the things that I personally find, I'm trying to think of the word It's difficult for, for people who see themselves as the other gender, as in, like, born in the wrong body.

Tyler:

Mm.

Ollie:

Like. I am a woman born in a man's body, whereas I don't feel it to that extent. I don't feel like a woman born in a man's body. So for me, I am comfortable and I am confident in that trans nomenclature. So for me, it's not as upsetting. As it is for someone who, who legitimately feels like they were meant to be the other gender. But it's a frustrating thing in my opinion because when you were born as one gender and you are transitioning like where I'm at right now it's inconsiderate in my opinion. That may not be the best word to use, but I see it as being kind of inconsiderate for Me to get mad at you because you said he, him, when I know the society that we, that we live in sees masculinity as he, him, and they see femininity as she, her, and they, them is not even a real thing. So for me, it's not as offensive for other people. It certainly is. And the reason why it is considered an offensive thing to do that, to out somebody, is even though like, I'm confident in being a trans person, we know that the way that society is right now is very, very hostile towards trans people. Just this year there have been 625 anti trans bills proposed, and it's only July. So. Not all of those things will pass but the fact that there's 625 bills being put out there just specifically to make it more difficult for one tiny little percent of the population to exist makes it a very scary thing to do. So when you're outed or when you're clocked is, it, it makes you feel like you're not enough. To the other term is pass passing. If you clock me, that means I'm not passing. And if I'm not convincing you, that means, yeah, I'm not convincing anybody. And so when you're in that, that, that headspace, you start thinking that everyone notices that. And so it leads you into this like mental spiral. And this happened to me recently. Camille and I went to the mall. And we got our ears pierced, and I was yeah, it was a fun time. I'm on my fifth piercing now and I had no piercings a year ago. Now I have a lot of them. You heathen. Yeah, I know. Right. Yeah. Camille's living vicariously through me. So she piercings, so she can look at them. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I went there and I was presenting feminine. I was wearing a dress, makeup, all the things. And we went into this shop. And. The lady there was using feminine pronouns for me, and it got to the point where I had to give my, my driver's license, which still has my old, you know, my old picture with facial hair and everything and my my my dead name. Which I am now calling my necronym. That's a new term that I, I recently learned, my necronym. Yeah. So Makes sense to me. I don't understand. Necro is dead? All of my Oh, okay, okay. Yeah. Yeah, I just think it's a funny, a funny way to put it. Necrotic. No, I like it. So, once she got my driver's license I had asked her if I needed to put my legal name in, or if it was just my preferred name, and she was like, preferred name's fine. It was pretty clear. She knew that I was trans. I gave her my, my driver's license and she, all she needed was my my driver's license number. So like the name and all that stuff she didn't have to put in. She just had to put in the number and then it got around to, she was getting ready to actually give me the piercing and she said he and used male pronouns and then she immediately caught herself and she apologized. But that ate at me for the rest of the day. Because I was, I was confused at how she was using feminine pronouns for the first half of our conversation. And at what point, in her head, That it went from she to he. So, you know, was it the driver's license? Was it the fact that, like, I was asking about preferred names?

Tyler:

Or do

Ollie:

I just look like a man in a dress? And, so, now I'm starting to think Everywhere I go, everyone's looking at me, even when they're not. You get that self conscious feeling that everyone is staring at you, and that's what it does. Got it.

Kyler:

Yeah. I always struggle with that sensitivity, especially like when I'm making traffic stops and whatnot, because recently in our, well, I say recently, but it was probably three or four years ago. We had a, a system update on our, on our police system that now allows for more than just he, him or male, female on our citation tables. And sometimes it's really difficult when you're like, well, This is what your ID card is telling me. So this is what I have to put on a citation, but I try to be sensitive to be like, what, what name do you prefer to go by? Like, what can I, and then I try to update their local file to show. What they prefer to go by, please, please respectfully call them this name or, or this is their pronouns or whatever we can do to try to assist in the sensitivity, which leads me to this quick story. I wanted to share about about clocking somebody, which was really, it was a really fun story actually. So I was in a training in Texas and we know how absolutely conservative Texas is and how they are, they struggle with sensitivity and whatnot. And, and the part of this training, we had a, our instructor was from Sacramento, California, and the instructor came in, had a beard longer than yours. Awesome. It's a total stud. Like, greatest dude ever. Had full sleeve tattoos, gave us this full on like sensitivity training. You're

Tyler:

talking about my beard, right? Or were you talking about Better than your beard. Okay. Yeah. You were looking at me and then I thought you were like looking at my soul and I just wanted to clarify that. Yeah. Yeah. No. I was looking into your soul. No.

Kyler:

Yeah. No. This person had an epic beard. And I was just like, this is the coolest dude I've ever met. Like the, the training was phenomenal. It was talking about being sensitive with LGBTQIA plus and in how we. Handled their animals and everything else like that and they did two days worth of training in Texas Everyone there was no question that this was a guy and at the very end of the training He dropped the biggest bomb on everyone and basically said the reason why I teach this is because I'm a trans man And you should have saw the looks on people's faces in the middle of Texas Like this is middle of Houston, Texas and the looks on people's faces were like Like their brains just couldn't compute and it made no sense. And I was just sitting there like I wanted to stand up and clap. Cause I was like, holy shit. Like you showed us pictures of your wife. You showed us pictures of your kids. Like no one here doubted that you were a guy. There was not a soul that was like, yeah, clock them, you know, there's not a chance. And so it was one of those things. It's like, it proves to me that, you know, the, the dip, the most difficult part in that transitioning period is. Getting to that point where you're actually living your true authentic self and you don't feel like people are staring at you, trying to figure out what you are.

Tyler:

Yeah. Thank you for going into sharing that story, Kyler, but Ollie, thank you for getting personal on, on talking about clocking and answering that question and clarifying and for sharing this, this whole story. It sounds like you had something to add in there.

Ollie:

I was just thinking like, it's. It's different for everybody, you know, like not every person transitions the same and

Tyler:

and

Ollie:

you know Like just because you don't get a surgery or maybe you don't take hormones or anything like that Doesn't make you any less trans, you know, it's just it's what you feel And there are some trans people who never Really change anything about themselves like, hormones or surgeries or anything like that, and they find comfort in themselves as they are and even though they may not pass, they're, they're comfortable in their skin and in their clothes, and so passing isn't the goal of every trans person and I think that just kind of depends on the, the severity of their gender dysphoria where, like, my gender dysphoria is maybe less than someone who feels like they were born in the wrong body.

Kyler:

Yeah. I had mentioned to my wife probably in the last year or so as I started seeing your social media updates come through, I, I kept on, you know, hinting, I was like, I think, I think Ollie is transitioning. I was like, I don't know. Because you haven't come out, read out and said it, but I, I watched your hair grow longer. I saw you in dresses and some just different things. And I'm just like, man, more power to her for being her true, authentic self. Like it was making me so proud. And so that, that, that final social media posts, when you kind of let it all out, I was just like, Like, this is so cool. I love, I love seeing your, your journey. How would you say your mental and emotional wellbeing has changed since coming out and transitioning?

Ollie:

I mean, there's been ups and downs for sure. So after my 30th birthday, I guess I should kind of pick up back on that as my drag party was the kind of like key moment where I was like, Camille, I need to do this. And it got down to a conversation of like, I was finally ready to accept that if she didn't want to be with me anymore, then this was going to be the moment that we find out. So it basically came down to, I didn't feel like if I transitioned that we could have a kid. For some reason, like in my head, it was like, either we have a kid or I transition, but we can't be both. So I was kind of giving her an out and out you know, like you married a man. I'm not the man that you thought that I was, and you want kids, but I want to transition. this isn't something that I can let go of.